Working with a recruiter is a two-way street

Get outside, get off of your computer, get up away from your desk, go out there, meet live people, go to events. Doesn’t have to even be professional networking events, it could just be like things that you enjoy doing. Just get out there with people, be a people person even if you don’t self-identify as an extrovert or a people person. There’s just so much value in connecting with people, and of course having your wants and your desires live in language. You never know where a connection is going to come from.

Thank you so much for having me, Ryan, it’s so nice to be here.

Sure, and I love that we’re starting with this question, because as I was walking to the studio, this is on 39th Street in New York, I was like, wow, this is such a full circle moment. Because I was waitressing when I first moved to New York in 2001, 2002. I was waitressing at a place like two blocks down on 39th Street, and I met these two women that were regulars, and just chatted with them and got to be friendly with them, and they owned a recruiting agency.

And at the time I was waitressing at that place, I was also cocktail waitressing at the Blue Note. You know, I had been pre-med in college and I was in a sorority, so I kind of recruited through that, like I was always a connector of people and I enjoyed that. And then when I graduated from school I went to London for a kind of work abroad situation, and ended up at a domestic recruitment company, so they were placing nannies and butlers and gardeners and kind of everything for the rich and famous. And so I was working there and started making nanny placements over there, so I had some experience doing it, but I didn’t think of it as a career.

But then when I met these women at Windfall, which is the restaurant, which is now closed, and they were like, oh, you know, we’re looking for a new recruiter. And I was like, oh, I used to recruit in London, kind of wistfully, like, oh, that was really fun. And they’re like, oh yeah, really? I was like, yeah. They’re like, you should interview. And I was like, I would love that. And so that was 2003 when I started working with them, that was at Gainor Staffing. And I just learned everything about the business. I learned about, you know, meeting clients, meeting candidates, how to screen people effectively on both sides of the equation.

And then it wasn’t until I was working at Razorfish, so I quit that job, this is 2006, I worked at Razorfish as their national UX sourcer. And so UX is the field that I’m in now, which is UX design, which is kind of the functional, practical side of design. And so I was working for Razorfish, it was a big name, I was building my name, and then they laid me off. And then it was just one of those moments where, like, okay, now what. And this plucky Texan woman that I worked with was like, hey, we know how to do this, let’s just be recruiters on our own, I’ll get the clients and you can place the candidates and we’ll just do that. And so that’s how I got started, and so that was kind of the beginning of the Joanne Weaver Group in 2007.

Thank you.

Yeah, great question. Let’s start with brass tacks. So a recruiter is somebody who is a go-between. So they’re basically the conduit between a company who’s hiring, which we call a client in the biz, and then the candidate, that’s what we call a job seeker in the biz. So somebody who’s looking for a job, somebody who has a job, we are the intermediaries that match the person up with the job.

There’s different types of recruiters. There’s internal recruiters, which might be working at a single brand. So let’s just say, you know, Duolingo. So there might be a recruiter, multiple recruiters that work at Duolingo, that might be looking for people to join their company in certain disciplines. So maybe they might have somebody who’s doing design recruiting mostly, there might be somebody who’s doing a whole slew of different disciplines, but they’re looking for people for their brand. Like when I was working for Razorfish, I was looking for people to work at Razorfish.

What I’ve done, so they call it an outside recruiter or a third-party recruiter, which is what I do, is somebody who either works in an agency or they’re independent like I am. So basically the Joanne Weaver Group, my company, is me and my business partner Rebecca Levi. We basically work with multiple clients, multiple companies. So we might have, you know, a Fortune 100 in the insurance business, that’s who we’re working with now, we might have some startups, we might have some agencies or design firm clients. So it’s whatever they are looking for at a particular moment in time, we go out in the market, find the right candidates for the job. Sometimes these are people that we’ve known, oftentimes it is, or it’s people that know people. Like I think 90% of our placements come from people that we’ve sourced from people that we know. So it’s a very big word of mouth thing, and I definitely want to talk about that a lot today.

The advantage, I mean there’s not a disadvantage of working with an internal recruiter, but the advantage, I think a nice perk of working with an outside recruiter, is that you get access to many jobs and many different companies. Maybe not all at the same time, depending on what the market is bearing. But if I meet somebody, I’m just thinking of a candidate that I met who was working at Shopify, and she had education in her background, she was a teacher, and I was like, okay, I work with a couple edtech companies. I might not have an open role there now, but I could pitch her to them, like, hey, I don’t know if you guys are looking for anybody right now, but I met this really great person, here’s a couple bullet points. Or I might just keep her in mind for the future, right? I think my job is very much about the long-term connection, building that relationship with candidates, which is a two-way street. So it’s the candidates keeping in touch with me as well, and just looking for opportunities for them through their careers, really.

Exactly, your business relationship is more with the businesses, yes. But I will say, for the candidate, the job seeker, it’s like the best deal in town, because you’re basically getting this free service of, like, hey. Sounds amazing. Yeah, I mean it’s pretty awesome.

So when we place a candidate in a role, we’ll make a percentage of their salary usually, and then there’s, you know, like they have to stay a certain amount of time. But it’s the client who pays us. So whether it’s full-time or freelance or temp to perm, they’re paying a percentage on top, but it doesn’t come out of the candidate’s salary. I think some candidates are like, oh, am I going to suffer in my salary if I work with you? It’s like, no, quite the opposite. We’re the ones that are going to bat for you at the negotiating table, to make sure that we can get as much as we can for you and whatever the client can bear, and what feels fair. Like we’re working with both sides of the equation to get to a good place.

Yeah, it’s a great question. So when we get a job in from a client, the first thing that Rebecca and I do is we sit down and we say, what is the persona of this person? Like, where is this person probably coming from? We’ll make a list of target companies. You know, for instance, working with this large insurance company, it’s like, we’re looking for people that have insurance experience or fintech experience, could be agency side where they had fintech or insurtech clients long-term, or they maybe are coming out of another large corporation that focuses in insurance and financial services, right? But this could be applied to anything. If a startup is looking for somebody, we’re probably going to be looking for somebody with startup experience, because they’re going to know what it means to kind of bob and weave with the startup life.

So we’ll make a list of what our target person is. We’ll work with our, we have a research team that goes out onto LinkedIn and finds people that could be a fit. So we’ll hit the people that we know first. We have a database that we’ve accrued over our 17, actually 18 years in business this year, we have about 20,000 candidates of people that we’ve met through the years. We have a really great filtering system, so we first try to go to the people that we know, right? Especially people that we’ve maybe placed in the past, people that we’ve repped in the past, people that we have a good sense of who they are and we know that they would probably be a good match.

Then the second line of inquiry would be asking those people that are in the right domain, like, in this example, asking people that are coming out of really big insurance companies, like, who do you know? We’ll also offer a referral bonus to kind of sweeten the pot a little bit, so if we place their person long term they can make up to a thousand bucks. Just a little kind of motivating factor. And then once we get the word out we’ll also post on LinkedIn, we’ll send out a newsletter. You know, whoever we’re talking to for a different role, we’ll always ask them for referrals. So it’s always just asking, which I think is also a great skill for the job seeker to have too, is that every conversation that you have, it’s an opportunity to ask for, hey, do you know somebody at this company, or I saw that you were linked in with this person, could I get a warm intro? So we’ll go into networking more in depth later, but these are skills that I think are just really transferable across the board.

And then we’ll set up phone screens, you know, 30 to 40 minute phone screens with people that we think could be a good match. We’ll do a really in-depth interview with them, I’ll take furious notes, and we’ll send them to the client. And then we’re basically that go-between between the client and the candidate, right? So the client will weigh in, what’s your feedback, what’s next steps, and we’ll basically be the massagers of the whole process as the candidate moves through it. So we’re giving them really detailed interview preps for each round of the process, like, here’s the company, here’s who you’re meeting, this is their email for the thank you, always write a thank you. That’s really big, might be a little old school, but these old school things, they really work. And then all the way through to the final negotiation of the offer. You know, once the person’s placed in the role, we’ll keep in touch with both sides, make sure it’s a good fit, make sure everybody’s happy. And that’s basically the life cycle.

So let me just back up for a second too, and just say the types of people that we represent. You know, I think our conversation is much more general than this, but just in terms of the people that we talk to are people that do UX and product design. So again, it’s the functional part of design, not the marketing part of design so much, a little bit of that. User research, content design, so those all kind of roll up into design and UX design and product design, product management, as well as some software engineering. We actually got into that in the last couple years, which I never thought we’d do, but we did successfully, so that was great.

When people in those realms, when they’re ready to make a switch, so I’ll talk about the candidate side first. When a candidate is ready to make a move, or even just kind of thinking about making a move, we always like to accept resumes, portfolios if that’s applicable. We always like to hear people and connect with people. We don’t always have time to talk to people that we don’t have an open role for, in fact we rarely do, but just to make that connection so we can put you in our database, we can look for something. You never know, like sometimes I’ll get a resume of somebody who’s got this very specific background, and then I’ll get a call from a client who’s looking for that very specific background. So it’s always a good idea to make the connection, and then to also keep in touch.

But they might be somebody that’s in a role that they’re like, hey, I’m kind of happy here, it’s okay, but I feel like maybe I’m not really growing. Or maybe, you know, there’s been a return to office and I really want to be more remote than I am now, or maybe it’s vice versa, like, I’m remote, I really miss people, I want to be back in the office. So it could be just kind of a sort of germ of an idea, like, oh, I think I might want to start looking around out there. So we welcome working with people like that. Or it might be people that are just like, I need to get out, I’m really miserable in my job, I’m very motivated to interview heavily and just to make the right move.

Or, you know, it’s very common in this era right now, is people that have been laid off. There’s been a lot of RIFs and a lot of layoffs, and something that I want to say about that is that I think a lot of people are going through a real crisis of conscience around that, where they feel it’s very tied into their self worth, it’s tied into their identity, right? Like, I think your job is, you know, it’s like half of your waking life oftentimes. So I think people are feeling a real sense of fear and directionlessness. And so I want to talk about that too. First of all, your job is not your identity and it’s not your self worth. There’s fantastic people that have been laid off for a long time.

So they could be in any sorts of those sorts of situations, right? When I will want to talk to them, or be open to a conversation, what would be the best time, is if I have an open role for them that I could fill now. Because basically all of our energy is going into filling these roles for our clients. Our clients are our clients, they’re the ones paying us, we need to make them happy, we want to do it quickly, we want to do it efficiently, want to make sure that there’s lots of care and feeding on that side. But we also do a lot of care and feeding on this side too, because we want the job seeker to feel heard and understood. I mean, we have to do that for our jobs, we have to understand what they do and what they want and what their dreams and ambitions are, so we can make those correct matches, right? So that’s a little bit of a picture on the candidate side. So when we have a job open, that’s when we’ll talk to candidates that could be that fit, or that potential fit, we’ll talk and have a conversation about it.

And then on the client side, I mean, that could be myriad reasons. It could be, you know, maybe they don’t know what they need to hire yet but they want to talk to us and just kind of spitball with us about, like, hey, this is where we are as a business, what should we hire, what’s your recommendation? So it could be really kind of a germ of an idea. It could be that they’re looking for a specialist. So a lot of the times, to be a recruiter in the design world, there’s the extra kind of complexity of looking at not just the resume and the background but also the portfolio, right? So me learning how to read a portfolio and how to interpret it took me years to do, and not every general recruiter will really know how to do design. So sometimes if the internal teams maybe are just really stretched thin, or they don’t have design as an expertise, then they might come to us.

But oftentimes they’ll come to us when they’re like, hey, we’ve tapped out our resources, we have this open job that’s been open for a while, we’re not getting the kind of quality, like if we post something we’re getting a barrage of resumes that are coming in, we can’t separate the wheat from the chaff. We just want somebody to come in who knows the market, who knows how to drill down to, like, what are the essentials of what this job is all about and what we need, and just give us like four to six great people that would do great. That was a very long-winded answer, but I hope that was helpful.

Yeah, so the job market has been tough. I would say 2023 until now, it’s been really scary for people. I’m not going to sugar coat it. I think it’s been tough.

Yeah. Well, I mean, I never like to be pessimistic and like, oh, this is the worst. I do think there’s an advantage in being a job seeker in this market now, especially if you’re coming in for the first time, because it’s like learning how to drive stick, right? If you know how to drive stick you can drive anything. If you can come in this dog market and you can find success, and you can learn good habits about how to get in front of people and how to score that interview and how to do well during the interviews, you’re super far ahead. So in some ways I think it’s a blessing to come in during this time. Like when I started my business in 2007, it was right before the 2008 crash, so I had to learn really quickly some great habits about just, you know, plugging away, just remembering it’s always darkest before the dawn, like, I can do this, and just keeping the faith.

So I think it’s scary for a lot of people. I do think that it’s starting to come back, like we are seeing some signals, like little green shoots of things coming through, like we’re getting more inbound requests from clients, which is lovely. But I think what’s been interesting is that because, like, the big FAANGs or the MANGs, whatever we’re calling them these days, they had tons of layoffs. These really big kind of stable companies had a lot of layoffs, and so I think it’s really changed the candidate market just in terms of their perception of, like, what is a safe company or what’s a good company for me to join. Because I love startups, I love all of our clients, but I come from the startup world myself, from the late 90s in San Francisco. That’s where I cut my teeth, that’s where I learned the digital and tech world, and there’s just an exciting energy around that. Many candidates would say, like, oh, I don’t want to work at a startup, it feels like it’s too unstable, I really want a stable job. But now I think that idea of what’s stable is quite different, right? So these big companies that people thought they had career longevity there, like, no questions asked, that’s all been called into question now.

So I think a combination of that, plus the combination of the pandemic hitting us in 2020 when the entire workforce went remote, I think that really opened up a lot of people’s hearts and minds. Like, oh, it’s like the needle across the record, where all of a sudden it’s like, oh, we don’t have to be in an office five days a week, and oh, I can move to a different city, or I can move to the country. I think it really expanded people’s consciousness in a way that made people just much more open to exploring different things and doing career transitions, or in Lois B’s case, career translations, your guest from last week.

Yeah. So I think there’s an open mindedness about what candidates will go for these days. But I think it’s really important, and what I really like about JobQuest, to put a little plug in for you guys, is I love this idea of what I understand the tool does, is that it scans your resume, it scans the job description and says, are you a good match for this role? Like, you’re a 65% match, like maybe not the greatest match, but like you’re 85 or above, like, okay, maybe you could go for it. Exactly. Does that sound accurate?

The job match score. I love the job match score, it’s great. So I think it’s really important, because there is relatively a shortage of jobs and there are more candidates on the market than there have been in recent years, is to really make sure that you’re going for the jobs that you’re a good match for, right?

Like, I think there’s definitely room in this conversation for a career transition, like, I want to go for something different. I’m not saying that isn’t on the table too. But I think it’s really about finding out what’s your niche, what’s your superpower, what’s the thing that you have of experience you could leverage. And I think there’s a lot of, you know, kind of that spraying and praying, like, I’m out of a job or I want to find a new job and I’m just going to feel productive by being behind my computer and sending my resume out to like a hundred places, to an Apply Now button, which is basically in many ways going to a black hole, because those people are overwhelmed, right? So I think it’s about being really niched. I think it’s telling a great story about yourself that’s memorable, you know, short and sweet. I think it’s about leveraging your personal connections. So I think there’s things you can do to be smart in this market, but it’s tough, and I think a lot of people are demoralized, I think a lot of people are scared and confused about what to do. So I’m really glad I’m on here so I can hopefully shed a little light and empower people.

Yeah. So I’d say, you know, in my role we are basically the networkers for them, right? Like, we’re making the connections with companies and getting them introduced. I would say for people networking on their own, I know networking is such a scary word for a lot of people. I think it brings up a lot of anxiety, it brings up visions of being in a big room full of people and they all have name tags on, everybody’s talking to everybody else, and like, where do I fit in? And I mean, I have that fear too, like I don’t actually love to go to networking events all the time. Sometimes I’m in the mood for it, sometimes I’m just like, I just want to stay home and watch Dune and just, you know, be on my couch.

I think there’s in-person networking and then there’s digital networking, right? I think to get rid of the ick or the scary around the word networking, I think a great energy to bring to a networking situation, whether it’s digital or in real life, is to think less about, like, what am I going to get from this situation, how are people going to view me, to get stuck in that self rumination, and to bring more of an energy of, like, what can I give? What can I give to the situation, right? I had an old vocal coach, Ellen Diamond, who taught me that too. Like, I’m a singer as well, I know that you’re a musician as well, right? But to go on stage sometimes it’s really scary, like you don’t know what’s going to happen, you’re jumping into the void. So she’d say, if you can go into any scary situation, or a situation that makes you feel insecure, if you can go in with the feeling of, like, what can I give to this situation? If I’m scared of being alone and stuck without a conversational partner, like, oh, I could go find someone who also looks kind of lost and be that conversational partner for them.

I think being out there in the world is really important. I think the pandemic did this, I think also people that are coming up through the tech world are just more digital natives, so I think they’re just very comfortable being behind a screen. But there’s just no substitute for us being in person together. Like, we are social beings, we’re animals really, I mean we’re cave people that like to sit around a fire and tell stories. Like, I say that all the time, right?

So we need that interpersonal connection. It builds trust. It’s like just talking with you right now, it’s like, you know, looking at each other’s kind of micro expressions and eye contact and all those things that just make you feel close to somebody, right?

Exactly, exactly. Like, I didn’t know how tall you were until I met you today. And my superpower, it’s this hidden superpower, I’m very tall.

So I think, and this is something I hear from design leaders too, when they are meeting people that are more like mid-level, like, you know, two to five years in their career, they say they feel really comfortable being behind a screen and taking orders and designing things. But as far as coming up with new ideas and collaborating and being in connection with people, that might be a weakness for some candidates in that area, or people that are employed. So I think just practicing, just getting out there and practicing with people is a great thing to do. Like, if it feels uncomfortable and weird at first, that’s totally normal. Like, impostor syndrome, nervousness, everybody else is feeling that too, and they’re not thinking about you, they’re thinking about their own stuff.

So I think just being in practice is good.

I just did a class with this design leader Dave Hoffer, out in Oakland, California, about making your portfolio. So it’s for designers, but a phrase that he bubbled up which I really love is, it’s the UX of you. UX is user experience, right? So that doesn’t have to be so jargony, it’s just like, if you’re a candidate coming to me, my experience of you is every single touch point.

Like, it is our conversation, to your point, right? Like, how can you come most prepared to that conversation? I’ll be looking for, you know, have you read the job description, have you come prepared with stories and examples of things that you’ve done that are similar, excitement about the role and about the company. Like, is this an area that I think would be a good match for you long term, and you’re exhibiting signs of being really engaged and interested? If a candidate is in it to win it, I’m going to be more in it to win it for them too, because there’s nothing better than somebody who’s just like, yes, gung-ho. Like, I’ll write back emails quickly, like if I ask for additional samples they’ll get it that night. So it’s just keeping that momentum going is really important.

But it’s all those micro interactions too. So it’s, how is your resume findable? Does your resume have all the information on it that I need? Does your email and your signature have your name and your phone number? Are you easily reachable? If you’re sending me a portfolio, are you making me ask you for the password? Oh my gosh, that’s so table stakes, but it happens all the time. So it’s just all these little things that people just might not be aware of, but all these things, the resume, the portfolio, how it’s presented, what it looks like, how you’re sending it to me, our conversation, what they’re bringing to that conversation, the things they’ve done that are similar, like any metrics or successes. Like, clients love numbers and metrics, you know, increased engagement, or percentage of reduction of people falling off, or whatever it might be.

But then it’s also how you are with me after that process. Like, are you, as I was saying before, are you following up quickly, are you kind of providing things that I’m asking for without needing a lot of back and forth? It’s kind of like, the candidate can put themselves in my shoes and the client’s shoes of, like, how do we get the most information out of you with the least amount of clicks and the least amount of effort? That’s going to really kind of give a positive impression.

Yes. And if somebody asked me that in an interview I would love that, like, how can I help you? Really, yeah, right? Because I think, being a recruiter, I love it, but it’s a little bit of a behind-the-scenes job. So when people recognize what we’re doing and they appreciate it and they want to help us in certain ways, like, I love it when I reach out to a candidate who might not be the right fit for a role but then they know somebody who would be great. And I don’t think they’re doing it for the referral bonus, like maybe I might not have even mentioned the referral bonus to them, but they just want to help their friends or they just want to help the community in a bigger sense.

And so I love it when people are just, you know, what’s going to make my job easier is getting the right candidates in front of me that I can then send the client, that are the right match. And so anytime that somebody can help me with that, they can, you know, maybe they want to repost my job that I post on LinkedIn to have it have more reach. Like, things like that, or just a thank you note after I screen them, or after I see them out, or just to keep that warm connection going. You know, we talked about in-person networking, but the digital networking, that keeping in touch, just being strategic about how you’re communicating with me.

Keeping your communication really short and sweet is really important. If I see somebody who’s writing a whole wall of text about why they’re a great match for the role, I’m thinking one of two things, if not both things. I’m thinking, like, oh, this person’s going to need a lot of handholding, they’re going to need a lot of time, and I completely admit that I can be long-winded too, so it’s something I’m constantly working on as well. I might assume they’re trying to talk their way into the job, they can’t really do the job, it’s a bit of a stretch, and so they’re just like, here’s all the things that I can do that are similar. But it usually means the candidate’s not the right fit.

Yeah, exactly. So just, you know, short and sweet. Oh, another networking thing I definitely want to tell people is, if you know someone that knows me, especially if you’ve gotten like a warm introduction, like, hey, so and so, you know, Jane Doe told me to get in touch with you, put that Jane Doe’s name in the subject line, like, so and so referred me. Because those warm connections, especially in this market when there’s so many candidates, that social proof is so important, right? So it’s like, if you’re coming through somebody that I know, or even if you’re like, hey, I see that we’re both connected to so and so on LinkedIn, great, that’s a social proof connection. And it also makes me think, like, oh, this person’s a savvy networker, I want to get behind them, they kind of know what’s what, so they’re going to be easier to rep and just a more fruitful relationship.

Absolutely. So there’s no replacement for that. And also, even prior to that, so yes, all of that is true, and then prior to that, just having things live in language. Like, I was telling Nick, like, oh hey, I’d like to do more podcasts. I’m doing a live stream every other week with two other design recruiter friends, Jared Tredly and Erica Fortgang. And that was me talking to a recruiter that knew both of them, and I was like, oh, I’d like to do more things, I’d like to be more public and kind of get out from behind my computer. And so she’s like, oh, you should talk to Jared, he’s doing that already, like you guys could do something together. So it was really me talking to Nick and saying, like, hey, I’m really loving doing this live stream, I’d love to do more things like that. And so when he met with you, he was like, oh, I have Joanne in mind, because she already planted the seed with me, right?

Absolutely, it’s so powerful, right? I think it’s powerful from the person, like, to understand what it is you’re looking for and they can think of you when things come up. But I also think it’s just powerful just for yourself, to say what you’re up to. You can remind yourself, like, what is my goal, what is it that I’m really excited about? I think there’s real power in just, you know, if you want to get metaphysical, you can take the girl out of California, you can’t take the California out of the girl. You could say, like, oh, there’s this energy connection. I do believe in that, I’ve seen that a lot. But even if you don’t believe in that, you’re just like, I just want to remember who I am and what I’m up to. I think there’s a real power in just speaking about it, sharing it with people, making that connection with people.

Yeah, so to your point, if it’s a small company it might be the founder or the CEO. If it’s a bigger company it’ll probably either be somebody from TA, so talent acquisition, reaching out to us, or HR, or it could be somebody who’s in charge of design, so maybe a VP of design, a head of design. It could be a recruiter, so it doesn’t have to be the head of TA, it could be an actual recruiter. Or it could be like the head of product, because we work on product and design, and oftentimes product and design will roll up into product as the ultimate leadership arena. So it could be somebody like that too.

Sure.

So it’s to get outside. Get off of your computer, get up away from your desk, go out there, meet live people, go to events. Doesn’t have to even be professional networking events, it could just be like things that you enjoy doing. Just get out there with people, be a people person even if you don’t self-identify as an extrovert or a people person. There’s just so much value in connecting with people, and of course having your wants and your desires live in language. You never know where a connection is going to come from.

And I think just also being really targeted in your approach. To not just feel productive because you’re putting out so many resumes, really make it a personalized approach. It’s much better to focus on maybe 20 companies than 100 companies, but put a lot of time and energy and thought into those 20 companies. Research them. Who do you know? If you know people that work at those companies, or know people that know people that work at those companies, have a little blurb, have something you can send them. Make it easy for people to send you along and to recommend you.

They can go to my LinkedIn, on Joanne Weaver, my name. They can go to joanneweavergroup.com, that’s J-O-A-N-N-E W-E-A-V, V as in Victor, E-R group.com. We are redesigning our website, it’s pretty old, it’s the cobbler’s children have no shoes situation right now, but we’re in the midst of a redesign, which is exciting, and a rename.

Yeah, we know some designers, find some help there. It’s incredibly, I can’t believe how tough it’s been to find. It’s kind of a different type of design than we do, but yes, it’s been a journey, it’s been a journey.

And they can also catch me and Jared and Erica’s podcast, our live stream that we do on LinkedIn. It’s every other Wednesday at 1pm Eastern. They can follow Design:Unfiltered, so hashtag design unfiltered on LinkedIn, and you’ll get served up when we’re going to do it next. And we’re gonna have Nick Gould on, actually we’re gonna have Nick Gould on Wednesday February 19th at 1 o’clock.

It is, we have our archives on YouTube. It’s not where most people see it, so it’s more of a LinkedIn thing. So it’s a live stream, so you can actually come join, ask questions in real time, network with the community. So we just kind of, you know, it’s kind of off the cuff, we take questions as they come in, we have great guests that come on. You know, Nick’s going to be amazing.

Oh, thank you so much, Ryan, it’s been really fun.

Bye.