You need a positive mindset

Just try to maintain, as best you can, a positive mindset. This is not easy, what we’re talking about, and yet by keeping a positive mindset things will be easier.

Great. Well Ryan, it’s a pleasure to be here. And really, my JobQuest started with an earlier career. I was a lawyer, practicing law for well over 30 years. I was at a large law firm for about three years, and then I transitioned into an in-house position at PricewaterhouseCoopers, in their legal department. And as you might imagine, a big firm like that, a professional services firm, has a lot of litigation, and so I was one of the internal litigators at PwC. I became a partner at the firm, and I also worked a lot on investigations, so SEC investigations, maybe by the AICPA.

So that was over 25 years with PwC, and I really enjoyed it. I got to meet a lot of people, a lot of professionals. The stakes in these litigations were really high, lots of money at stake, and the lawsuits were brought in courts around the nation, state court as well as federal court. But all good things have to come to an end, and I retired as a partner at PwC a number of years ago.

And as part of my retirement, I, along with some other partners at the firm, got some coaching to help us think through what’s next. And it’s one thing to be a partner in a firm like PwC, one of the big four professional services firms, and then the day after that you’ve turned in your badge, you can’t even get in the turnstile, you can’t go up the elevator anymore, nobody’s looking to you for help. So they felt, the firm did, that it would be good to help partners transition into the next phase of their lives. And I took advantage of that, and I found, oh, this coaching is really useful to help me think through my next steps and how would I go about them. And I, along with maybe 12 other partners and our significant others, went on a three-day retreat to talk about these things.

And it was really, Ryan, a direct result of having coaching myself that I thought, gee, maybe I could bring my skills as an attorney but also develop some new skills as a coach, and help people, but in a very different way. And I also liked coaching because I could have a little more control over my schedule, wouldn’t be at the beck and call of opposing counsel or judges setting difficult deadlines.

So I got certified as a coach. It was an eight-month program in California. I loved it. It’s the Hudson Institute of Coaching, you may not have heard of that, but it’s one of the premier coaching firms or certification schools in the United States, and there are others. And I started coaching after I got that certification, so I’ve been coaching now over six years and really enjoy it. But that’s how I transitioned from being a lawyer full-time to being a coach.

I think a lot, Ryan, has stayed the same. As you were just mentioning, resumes, you need to think about how you’re going to answer questions at an interview, most people have hang-ups about something, networking is easy for some people, it’s hard for other people. So those things, in my view, really have not changed.

I think what has changed is the use of AI, to help people create resumes, to help people draft certain things that they might want, let’s say, in a LinkedIn profile or a cover letter going to a prospective employer. So AI has come in in a pretty big way in the last two years.

And beyond that, I think, you know, there’s a lot about social networking. Do we use Facebook, do we use Instagram, do we go to TikTok, are those platforms useful to us in the JobQuest? And I think some people might have different views on that, and so that might have changed in terms of people’s attitudes. Facebook used to be the rage, now it’s more Instagram. They’re owned by the same company, people react to those differently. TikTok is new, and that would be something that people, let’s say seeking out a job, would have to really think about, do I use TikTok or not. Frankly, it’s nothing I’m familiar with, I’ve never coached anybody on using or not using TikTok. But I do coach them a lot on LinkedIn, having a robust profile there. And sometimes people will say, hm, let me go see how AI can help me. So in that sense, it’s changed, yes.

I just thought of one other thing that’s changed, and that is, we’re post-pandemic. During what, at least two years, at least two years, the JobQuest during the pandemic was very different. And issues about going to the office, how do we do interviews. So we’re fortunately beyond that, we don’t have to wear masks, and travel is much easier. Are you going to do in-person interviews? Couldn’t do those during the pandemic. So there’s a lot more fluidity now than there was during the pandemic.

Yeah, I think lawyers have a lot of pride, for the most part, in their profession. However, a lot of people don’t enjoy being a lawyer. They’re tasked with certain responsibilities that feel perhaps overwhelming, or they’re not getting the right training, or they’ve been fired because things haven’t worked out, there’s a downsizing at the law firm for example. But they’ve come out of a profession that is well regarded, for the most part. And so thinking through what they’re going to do next, whether it’s going to continue in a legal profession or maybe not be a lawyer anymore, can, I think, for them be a little harder than for some other people that I’ve worked with.

And yet it’s really important, as a coach, well, let’s say when I’m working with a lawyer, they may be very clear that they don’t want to continue in the legal profession, they’re fine to give it up for a variety of reasons. But then there are those I’ve coached who say, no, I really do want to continue in the profession. And so it’s more exploratory, like the quest you’re talking about. What are things that might be fulfilling to them, enjoyable for them, maybe not have the same pressure that they were having before, but still keeps them in the legal role?

So, but I’d say apart from that kind of thing, Ryan, a lot of the issues that lawyers deal with, other of my clients deal with as well, whether they’re lawyers or they’re consultants, or midlevel people trying to maybe get promoted. There’s a lot of similarities there, a lot of things that overlap on all the professions.

I think that’s yes. And they know, all of them, people who have succeeded in ways that maybe they wanted to, they realize that hey, if they’re not interested in, let’s say, working at a law firm, or they’re not interested in working at a big law firm, their ability, what they might be interested in and able to do, narrows a bit. Or they’re thinking, well, I want to do something that’s more fulfilling, so do I work for the District Attorney’s Office, do I be working in the nonprofit sector, do I try to get into government, where maybe become a judge? This tends to be people that are a little more seasoned as lawyers who might want to consider that. But the overall thing is that their opportunities might be a little narrowed if they’re saying, I don’t want to be what I was before, but I want to continue as a lawyer.

And having said that, though, I think that probably that principle applies to others as well. Yeah, if you’re, let’s say you’re a consultant, you might say, well, I can be a consultant to any number of organizations or companies or for products. But if you start really talking to a consultant, more likely than not they have some areas that they feel more comfortable in, so they may be a little less interested in promoting themselves as a consultant to everybody or everything. So they too might feel a little narrowed.

So I don’t want to overstate it for lawyers, but I think there’s some reality there. For lawyers, they’ve gone through three years of education, they’ve probably spent a lot of money getting themselves through law school. And a lot of doctors, of course, they spend more money, more, sorry, doctors spend more time in school than lawyers do, but three years is a significant amount of time and it’s expensive. And so lawyers may feel a little more reluctant to just give that up.

Right, totally right. These are going to be really versatile people that, in some ways, would be, I don’t know, I wouldn’t say easy to help them get placed, but they’re going to have a lot of valuable knowledge for potential employers. That’s correct. They might run into the situation where somebody says they’re overqualified, because they do have all those skills. So it’s like a lot of things, you have to find the right spot, the right potential employment opportunity, where those skills that you have as a lawyer can be used in a different way. And that’s certainly, yes, a lot of the communication skills, the writing, the research, the analytical skills that a lawyer by and large is going to have to use, are good transferable skills.

I’d love to tell you three months tops, but no. It’s usually, and it depends on who they are, but six months, and it can go longer. Sure it can go longer. I mean, I’ve had people that have taken less time, and I’ve had people that have taken definitely more than six months. And it really depends on the kind of thing they’re looking for and what the opportunities are.

I know one thing, when I was transitioning from work at a law firm to working in-house, it was easier at that time to make that change, there were more in-house positions available. Now it’s very difficult for a litigator, which is what I was. I worked at Skadden Arps, and I really enjoyed Skadden Arps, but I did make that transition to an in-house position, rather. And that’s not, especially as a litigator, as easy to do now. So it might take longer than it took me to transition into an in-house position.

You’re right about networking. It’s networking, it’s also being at the right place at the right time if you possibly can be, and that’s not something we control. But networking is something that we do control, how much we do it, when we do it, with whom we do it, where we do it. And that’s something that, as I said maybe earlier, some people are very comfortable with and other people have more difficulty with. So any job seeker really does have to think about who’s in their network. And often with a client I will have them talk to me about who’s in their network, and often they don’t mention people because they haven’t thought about those people in a long time. But when you talk about it, you can often extend that network.

I’ve talked fairly often to people about, and this is based on research that was done quite some time ago in the 80s, about, you have your inner circle, your outer circle and your third circle when you talk about networking. And the inner circle is your relatives, really good friends, and those are people that know you and of course they want you to get that other job and they have you in mind. But it’s people in the outer circles, maybe it’s your professor in law school, your professor in undergrad, it’s a person you met the day before that you had a good conversation with. And those people, interestingly, really don’t have much vested in whether you get the job or don’t, and they’re more likely to tell you, oh, I heard about a job that so-and-so wanted, such and such, and you mentioned such and such, and maybe you should apply to that. Whether you get the job or not, the person you met, or people in your outer circle, they don’t really care whether you succeed or not in the same way that your inner circle does.

So Ryan, the people in your inner circle, they may not refer you to certain positions that they hear about, because they’re concerned that you may not, that’s really not for you, they make a judgment as to whether that job is good for you, and they are really invested in your success, so they don’t want to suggest a job opening to you that somebody in your outer circle might. So in thinking through your network, you really have to be thoughtful about not just your close relatives, friends, close mentors, but expand that, knowing that the people in, as I said, these outer circles, when you reach out to them, or maybe you meet them at a lunch line and they say something funny and you start talking to them, well, those people might end up being as helpful if not more helpful than your inner circle.

So, different dynamics with the different layers of the different relationships you have. But networking is really important, and I think a coach, for somebody who really is nervous about networking, there’s ways to get beyond that and to get more comfortable with it. And I’ve had both clients who are very comfortable with networking and others who really just don’t like doing it.

I would say, Ryan, it’s when you find yourself, or your friends and family members find you, complaining about how unsuccessful you have been, how tired you are of doing this or that, how unhappy you are with the effort you’re putting in. When you start complaining in that way, that’s probably the time to get a coach.

And the other thing I would say is, if you find yourself talking to your friends a lot about the same thing over and over. Your friends, they want to help you, and they may do things that are helpful. But if you find yourself talking to your friends about the same thing again and again, maybe you’re not complaining but you’re telling them what you’re doing, and yet you’re not really getting some good feedback, maybe they’re getting a little tired of hearing about your JobQuest, that would be another time. But going back to my first point, it’s really when you find yourself, or other people find you, complaining and moaning and groaning and acting tired, being tired, often that it’s time to get a coach.

Yeah, okay. Well, a good coach, you don’t have to prepare for it, you really just need to go in there with an open mind, willing perhaps to talk to a few coaches that you’ve been given their names, and understand what their process is. Coaches will charge different amounts of money for the process, for time you spend with them. And so there’s really nothing you have to get ready.

When I talk to a client, I will always have what’s called a chemistry call, a right fit call is what some people call it, to make sure that the dialogue between us is positive, good, makes you leave that conversation feeling, oh, I enjoyed that conversation. And assuming you do, and you say, well Margaret, how about if we start working together, there’s no charge for this chemistry, let’s just talk and see what the issues are conversation.

I, as a coach, would more often than not, Ryan, give you a questionnaire to fill out, but that is in anticipation of our first real meeting, and I want to have input from you. That’s where I would ask you to do some things, to answer a number of questions, and a lot of coaches do that, so that I’m not spending your time asking questions that I can just read on a piece of paper. And there are other things that coaches do to kind of get to know the client a little more quickly. It’s not meant to be therapy, where I’m asking you so many questions to understand your psyche. You want to get a job, or you want to get a new career. So the prep work would be more anticipation of that first real meeting.

And I say to clients, and I’m not sure how many other coaches do, hey, if after that first meeting you still are not finding it, ah, this is not what I wanted, then I might say, you pay, agreed upfront, you pay me X for that first meeting, no bad feelings, because this has to work for you. And if you’re not feeling charged up by it, motivated by it, then you don’t want to keep going with the coach. But that I think has happened once to me, and it’s very rare for that to happen. But clients like to have, do I have a safety out if I just conclude after my first meeting it’s not going to work for me? So that’s where the first prep is, answering my questionnaire.

Yeah, exactly. I need to make sure that the issues and problems, hurdles you have are ones that I’ve dealt with and I’m comfortable with, that I have some good view about. I will say though, Ryan, every client is different. So what worked for a client, yes, it would be in the same realm, but what you, Ryan, need is going to be somewhat different. But yes, experience builds, and I feel I have a lot of experience now, both in my professional life as a lawyer helping people solve problems, and now helping them solve a different kind of a problem or issue.

I like not to use the word problem too often, it’s more like you say, the quest, the adventure, the exploration. And a lot of times people feel a little confined, uptight, by the time they come, and I try to help them feel more relaxed, like, oh yeah, this could be fun, let’s go. What were some things you could explore maybe on your own after we’ve met here? It’s not always doing it together with me. The meetings are meant to give you the motivation to go do some homework on your own, meeting people, maybe it’s improving your resume, maybe it’s getting ready for an interview. It’s a lot of different things that could come up for somebody looking for a new career or a new job.

My tip would be, just try to maintain as best you can a positive mindset. This is not easy, what we’re talking about, and yet by keeping a positive mindset things will be easier. And it’s maybe easier said than done, but that would be my primary tip.

Exactly. And it’s another job. I mean, people who go into this looking for another job who already have a job, they don’t want to let go of that job until they have another job, so they’ve got two jobs. Somebody who has maybe been let go, or they have worked out some other arrangement, maybe they have a severance, so they have a little more time to go do the things they need to do to seek that new career, that new job.

And people coming to me, a big difference is how clear are they about what they want to do next. You, coming out of academia, how clear were you that you knew where you wanted to go? And some people are quite clear, and that’s a different coaching engagement than somebody coming to me or another coach and saying, I just am really unhappy with what I’m doing, I need to do something different. Then you’re starting at a different place. It’s all good though, it’s all good. But you have to know where you stand, right, and where you want to go.

Oh Ryan, interesting you should ask that question, because I’m actually going to take a little bit of a sabbatical starting in early February. My husband and I are going to take a trip to Southeast Asia, that’s a far away place, so we’re going to spend about three months over there. And during that time it’s going to be a little hard to continue my practice in the same way. I expect I’ll be getting emails from time to time, but I’m not going to take on any new clients before I leave. When I come back, then I’ll be able to pick up hopefully where I left off.

But right now I’m going to be continuing what I do through the end of February, sorry, through the end of, I’m going to continue what I’m doing through the end of January, and then take a little, as I say, a little sabbatical, which I think can be very refreshing. I’ll come out with a different mindset myself when I come back. But it’ll be exciting, and I look forward to the trip, but I also look forward to taking it up when I come back.

You know, it’s going to depend on a few things which I don’t really know right now. I talked about having an open mindset, well, I’m going to have an open mindset as to where my coaching goes once I come back. How much will I be influenced by anything that I see, do, act upon while I’m abroad? There may be one or two unusual clients I get while I’m away that don’t need to talk to me but maybe once or twice or even three times.

I may come back and say I want to continue my niche, working primarily with lawyers and people who are in transition, maybe it’s transition into retirement, transition into a new career, as opposed to, let’s say, people that are coming out of college. And I haven’t had too many people just coming out of college, that’s not where most of my people are. But I may be more in a mentoring role for new coaches, that’s possible. I’m just not sure.

You’re very welcome, Ryan. Nice to be here, thanks for having me.